A recent post of (((Billy)))’s got me thinking about that age-old creationist argument; “Science is just another religion.” On the face of it, the claim seems ridiculous, but it seemed worth a more detailed examination. To what extent, then, can science-based atheism be considered a “faith” position?
First off, I should admit that I’m no scientist. My qualifications from A-level onwards are in arts and humanities; all the science I know comes from avid reading and a PhD-wielding father who drummed science into me at every opportunity when I was a child. That said, I consider myself fairly bright, and although I have a bit of trouble getting my head around quantum theory, most scientific concepts filter their way into my brain with little difficulty. With that in mind, I’m able to understand scientific arguments, see how conclusions have been drawn from a given data set, and recognise potential flaws in the reasoning. Thus, a piece of research is only valid to me if it demonstrates a solid line of logic from the original experimental evidence to the conclusion.
An example, admittedly an obvious one, of a set of conclusions that I emphatically do not accept would be the Intelligent Design thesis. The process of reasoning that leads from “life is complex” to “God did it” is riddled with more holes than an Emmental cheese at a shooting range. Rebutting every stage of the argument would take more time and effort than I’m frankly willing to commit, but I’d direct interested parties towards Answers In Genesis Busted and The Panda’s Thumb for a thorough dissection of the ID movement.
However, I suppose in a way that a certain sort of “faith” is required for my acceptance of scientific knowledge. I have to believe that the experimental data is accurately reported, for example, and that it was correctly collected in the first place. In other words, I have to trust that what scientists are telling me is true. How is this different to trusting what a priest or imam says? Is this not just a case of choosing one argument from authority over another? In trusting Richard Dawkins over Pope Benedict, I am making a decision as to what criteria I will accept as delineating my theory of knowledge. In effect, I am choosing to believe the statements of science over the statements of religion, and thus have no tenable position from which to criticise those who choose to encompass their epistemology with religious faith instead.
The difference, I would argue, lies in the reason behind my acceptance of scientific arguments over religious ones. In essence, the arguments of theism are based on attempts to reach an already assumed conclusion, “God exists.” If one looks everywhere for proof of something in the certain expectation of finding it to be so, one is liable to find a whole stack of supporting evidence. Scientific arguments, however, do one of two things instead. Either they assume a hypothesis and attempt to dis-prove it, or they begin dispassionately with a set of data and look at the conclusions one might draw from it. To my mind, these methods are self-evidently more likely to yield unbiased, accurate results, and so I am more willing to accept them as a basis for my worldview.

28 comments
Comments feed for this article
July 29, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Eshu
I love the cheese analogy. I think all analogies should involve cheese!
Also, you could probably say what it would take to convince you you’re wrong.
July 30, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Rhology
Howdy,
You said:
the arguments of theism are based on attempts to reach an already assumed conclusion, “God exists.”
Mine are, but not all are. The arguments of, say, Strobel, WL Craig, Habermas, etc, attempt to reason from a supposed neutral position.
And yours are based on already-assumed things as well, such as “evidence is a good way to discover truth” and “I understand evidence” and “methods can be ’self-evidently more likely to yield unbiased, accurate results’”. Faith is everywhere, in your position and mine. It’s just that some are more honest than others to admit such things.
If one looks everywhere for proof of something in the certain expectation of finding it to be so, one is liable to find a whole stack of supporting evidence.
Since I used to be a believer in Darwinian evolution, and was subsequently disabused of the notion by the force of argumentation for the other side, this is at best a rule of thumb, not a coverall generalisation.
they begin dispassionately with a set of data and look at the conclusions one might draw from it
In my experience, it is often not dispassionate at all, especially when the topic at hand is a sacred cow.
So, what is the basis for your worldview? What do you presuppose w/o proof?
July 31, 2008 at 2:13 am
Evo
Rhology, could you tell me some books on evolution you have read, that you at one time found to be an accurate representation of how, in general, we came to be where we are today, but now have “disabused” yourself of?
Just your top 3 most convincing works will do for this purpose. Books written since 1970 please. Thanks.
July 31, 2008 at 7:22 am
The Exterminator
Rhology:
What’s the difference between “Darwinian evolution” and evolution as science understands it today?
By the way, did you know your wife is having an affair with Evo? Don’t ask me for evidence, though. You’ll just have to take that statement on faith.
July 31, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Rhology
Evo,
Where did I ever claim to be an expert on evolutionary theory? A professor? Anything like that?
I’ve been taught about evolution ever since I was in elementary school all thru university, so all my science textbooks.
I’ve read Dawkins’ _The Selfish Gene_.
Are you trying to say that I don’t hold to evolution b/c I’m insufficiently educated in it?
The Ext,
Um, wow.
So, moving on to what I *actually* said, what is your evidence that evidence is a good way to discover truth?
Oh wait, we’ve been over all this already and you have consistently failed to even try to answer. There’s always today, though.
July 31, 2008 at 3:36 pm
PhillyChief
Ex’s joke, although funny, does seriously address the issue. Now Rho can dismiss it, and yes, he could do so purely on faith that his wife would always be loyal, but what if Evo really was boning her? In fact, let’s say he’s boning her right in front of him. Would faith still be the best path to truth, or would it instead be better to rely on the evidence before him of his wife bent over the dining table, face flushed and screaming like a banshee with Evo behind her ploughing her vigorously while singing a little song?
Yunshui: You’re forgetting an important factor of science – it’s full of scientists. What’s that matter? Well scientists challenge each other constantly for various reasons. It could be intellectual integrity or merely self interest, but they are each a check against one another. Now as far as having faith in scientists telling the truth, that could be true if there was only one scientist, but we considerably more than one, and each critically examines other’s results. This is why both evolution has withstood and why creationism is dismissed. Evolution continues to go through the gauntlet and holds, whereas creationism can’t even be tested, so when you accept scientific claims that have been peer reviewed and tested, that’s hardly faith. That’s trusting in the scientific method. This is in contrast to unfalsifiable claims like creationism or whatever a religious leader spouts which require faith for acceptance, which rather than being a method for finding truth, is more like a way of ignoring truth, but I can be sympathetic because if I was Rho witnessing a sight like I described above, I’d rather shut my brain off and rely on faith too. ;)
Btw, if you think the arguments of, say, Strobel, WL Craig, Habermas, etc, attempt to reason from a supposed neutral position, you really are relying on faith over reason and evidence.
July 31, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Spanish Inquisitor
I have nothing to say. I just wanted to see that again.
OK. I do have something to say. What Philly says here is key. You can’t take reading matter (and really, that’s all Strobel, Craig, et. al. boil down to) that is highly agenda-ized, highly biased, and works from an assumed reality that there is a god, then use that as your “evidence” that you have reviewed. You have to drill down through what they write and ask yourself whether they have the evidence to support their claims. From what I’ve seen of those examples, they have never had anything more than argument based on assumptions,. They have never advanced any evidence whatsoever, so to read them and cite them as evidence is is akin to reading Aesop and citing his fables as evidence of gnomes and unicorns.
I wrote about Craig here.
July 31, 2008 at 5:26 pm
PhillyChief
Rather than argue for the defense of a position arrived at from a neutral position through an intellectually honest investigation, The Craigs and Strobels of the world instead argue for the defense of an indulgence. I think at best that’s called rationalizing, at worst it’s called deception. Rationalizing if you’re trying to justify your own indulgences, deception if you’re trying to justify such indulgences to others.
July 31, 2008 at 6:17 pm
The Exterminator
Rho:
I don’t want to take anything on faith, so could you provide a brief summary of The Selfish Gene — in your own words, please — just to reassure us that you actually read it with comprehension.
Also, if possible, could you furnish some pictures of your wife.
July 31, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Evo
Rhology begged my enlightenment: Are you trying to say that I don’t hold to evolution b/c I’m insufficiently educated in it?
That – and that because it would create a cognitive dissonance that you aren’t ready to deal with. It conflicts with what you want to believe. And education would be a great place to start. It always is.
So far you’ve used most of your education simply to be able to argue for previously held beliefs. You can do that with philosophy quite easily. Not so with true science. You find out what the science is, you accept it, and if your beliefs don’t fit, you abandon or change them. Scary, huh?
The Beak of the Finch, Weiner
Endless Forms Most Beautiful, Carroll
The first is an easy and enjoyable read. Someone of your intelligence can easily knock it off in a few days – maybe faster. Endless Forms is a bit more challenging, but still not a herculean task. After you have read those two (but not before – you won’t be ready yet)
The Moral Animal, Wright
Now, you can refuse my challenge and probably will. But I can tell you that you will be well educated on modern evolutionary theory (and it’s consequences) after you read those books. If you want to read others instead, I could give you dozens. But the fact is, you don’t shit about evolution. Certainly not to arrogantly dismiss it. Read these and if you can still dismiss evolution, you are on to something.
August 1, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Rhology
Your talking about my wife in that way is not something I’m prepared to tolerate.
If you want to continue this line of discussion, feel free to drop by my place; I’ve just finished a post that is very relevant to this topic.
Here’s to a little more decency in your speech.
August 1, 2008 at 11:18 pm
PhillyChief
I wonder how’d you’d be on Cheaters…
Host: I’m sorry to have to show you this sir, but here’s the video we captured of your wife and some large crooning man
Rho: So?
Host: Well sir, it’s clear that your wife is having an affair, so I’m very sorry.
Rho: What do you mean it’s clear?
Host: Well the evidence is right here.
Rho: Evidence? What is your evidence that evidence is a good way to discover truth?
Host: Uh…
Rho: Ha! You can’t answer, can you? I win!
Host: Sir, you can see right here…
Rho: The way to truly SEE is not with the eyes.
Host: Ok, well you can hear her. Let me turn it up
- “Oh god, I’ve never been rammed so deep before” -
Rho: There are limits to the 5 senses!
Host: Yeah, well, we can drive you over to where they are if you want to confront her.
Rho: Confront her? About what?
Host: Taking it up the ass from one “John Evo”
Rho: I have faith that my wife is true to me, and faith is all I need.
Host: I think we need a medic. He’s gone into shock
Rho: My only shock is that you can’t see the superiority of faith over reason and evidence.
Host: Where’s that medic?
August 1, 2008 at 11:23 pm
PhillyChief
I forgot to add as the ambulance drove off taking him to the hospital, you could hear him keep repeating “I covered all this on my blog if you’ll just take a look…”
August 1, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Evo
Rhology – calm down. No one even knows your wife. It’s an example of the fact that in every other part of your life you would need evidence. Somehow I don’t think you’d be asking philosophical questions like “how do I know that material evidence would be superior to praying about this”? Or, “what is the definition of evidence”? Or “Why is evidence the best way that humans can know facts”? In fact, I’m sure you wouldn’t.
Anyway, I’m not the one who challenged you on this, so what was so hard about answering my question? I’ll check your blog but if it doesn’t respond to the evolution challenge then I’ll take it as something you aren’t interested in learning. What else should I conclude. You have rejected a scientific fact when you don’t even know what it is!
August 2, 2008 at 12:12 am
The Exterminator
Rhology:
Answering the question on your own blog is like saying in the middle of a debate: “Oh, I’ll respond at another time in another place.” It’s a lame tactic. So, no, I’m not going to check your blog. You were asked the question here.
If someone accused your wife of screwing around, would you believe it on faith or would you insist on evidence?
That’s not implying anything about your actual wife. So you can pretend to be offended all you want, but you’re dodging. You’re like the schoolyard bully who goes crying home to his mother as soon as someone reacts in a way to which he has no adequate response.
In other words, you’re an intellectual coward.
August 2, 2008 at 12:39 am
PhillyChief
Perhaps he’s just having a crisis of faith. Perhaps he recently has had evidence to suggest his wife is cheating on him and this is his way to cope, by asking people on various blogs to justify evidence as a means of discerning truth. Ex’s joke was just a coincidence, or perhaps a sign from his god to open his damn eyes and stop being such a shmuck. :)
August 2, 2008 at 12:46 am
Evo
If it makes you feel any better, Rhology, I can deny Philly’s description of events. She did not scream like a banshee.
August 2, 2008 at 1:30 am
PhillyChief
How could you tell over your own singing?
August 2, 2008 at 1:42 am
The Exterminator
Philly:
Ex’s joke was just a coincidence.
Well, to be honest, I did hear a voice in my head. I didn’t think it was god, though; it sounded more like Rhology’s wife. Not that I know what she sounds like, but I don’t know what god sounds like, either. As far as I’m concerned, I’ve now known Rhology’s wife personally, because she has spoken to me. And you can’t prove that she didn’t, can you?
August 2, 2008 at 1:47 am
PhillyChief
touche´
August 2, 2008 at 2:26 am
Evo
Philly asked: How could you tell over your own singing?
Because I’ve never made a women scream (during sex). I’m not saying she didn’t moan a bit. But that could have been from the singing. Maybe it was a groan. I forget. It was all so fast…
August 2, 2008 at 5:28 am
PhillyChief
I’m sorry to hear every part of that. Maybe if you took your time, you’d get a scream. ;)
August 2, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Evo
I have to finish before he gets home…
August 4, 2008 at 6:36 pm
yunshui
I go away for a couple of days and suddenly everyone’s piled in on a single post… I think Rhology sensibilities have been assaulted sufficiently for one comment thread, don’t you?
I’m going to do the very thing that Ex hates, and write a post in response – it should go up in the next couple of days – since I think we can all do without further mental images of Evo’s hirsute buttocks repeatedly thrusting as he flexes his manly… ah jeez, now I have to go and wash my brain. Thanks for the images there, guys.
August 4, 2008 at 10:40 pm
PhillyChief
why do I feel more grossed out by “hirsute” than hairy?
How do you know his sensibilities have been assaulted? Can you prove it? Can you prove Evo doesn’t have his ass waxed regularly?
August 4, 2008 at 10:41 pm
PhillyChief
Btw, I find it quite telling that my mental image was from the front, whereas yours was from the rear.
August 5, 2008 at 2:04 am
Spanish Inquisitor
Why would he wax? I have proof that he no longer shaves, so I doubt he waxes.
August 5, 2008 at 7:09 am
The Exterminator
Yunshui:
I wouldn’t shed too many tears for Rhology, if I were you. He’s a smug jerk and a liar who often fucks up a perfectly decent comment thread. The reason he ran away was not because his sensibilities were assaulted, but because he didn’t have an answer to the question being posed, albeit, admittedly, in a rather graphic way.
He’s been all over the Atheosphere arguing against the validity and/or need for evidence. So we simply hypothesized a situation in which a normal person might like to have some of that precious evidence. Since Rhology never admits he’s wrong about anything he fled under the pretense of being outraged.
Don’t you believe it.